On Tuesday you issued a strike warning against King, the computer game company, over their refusal to sign a Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) with their workers. Why did you feel that was necessary?
Camilla Frankelius: We've been having negotiations for more than a year, and we have been trying to negotiate a CBA and get them to understand that this is what our members want. But they didn't agree on that, so we ended the negotiation at the beginning of the summer. After that we have been having discussions with our members and then we came to the conclusion that we had to have an industrial action.
Why does the company say that it doesn't feel the need for a collective bargaining agreement? It's quite unusual in Sweden for companies not to have such an agreement. How does the company justify it?
Camilla Frankelius: What they are saying to us is that they have enough good work conditions, so they don't think it's necessary for them.
Why don't your members agree with that? Presumably they're quite well-paid.
Camilla Frankelius: Well, that might be true, but for the members it's also about other things. With a CBA, they have the possibility to take part in this that we call MBL (Medbestämmandelagen) in Sweden. That's when you sit down with your employer and you can talk together about the new things that are going to happen at the company and they have to listen to you, and you can represent the members in that way. I think that's one of the things actually that's quite important for them. It's also not long ago they let people go from the company and if you have a CBA, you can get help from our organisations that help people when they are out of work.
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Do you have a lot of international members from other countries working for King?
Camilla Frankelius: We have both: we have Swedish engineers, but we also have a lot of members that are coming from other countries.
And do international members also see the benefits? Because I know that collective bargaining agreements are much more common in Sweden than they are in the US or India, for example.
Camilla Frankelius: Yes, when we have a members' meeting it's really nice, actually, to hear how they think 'at last, I can actually can be part of this Swedish model and make my voice heard with the employer and take action on things.' So I think that they really like this. But of course they have questions about what happens with their permission to be in Sweden and work permits.
That's a question we are dealing with. I should stress that the rules are the same for them regarding the right to participate in industrial action and receive strike pay from us if they are a member. They have all the same possibilities as our Swedish members.
What do you feel about the response from members and from other unions? The members have voted to do this and three or four other unions have said they will mount sympathy strikes.
Camilla Frankelius: It is, of course, very important that the unions can join together on this and that's the way they work in Sweden.
Can you go into a bit more detail as to what the industrial action will entail, both from your members and the sympathy strikers? What actions will you take against King to put pressure on the company?
Camilla Frankelius: Our industrial action will be a strike: you leave work – you don't have permission to work, actually. Whether you are at work or working from home, you shouldn't do any work at all. You should just do nothing.
You should also support the strike. We might want you to participate in meetings, or you can stand outside the offices and talk to people that come by and explain the situation. But the basic rule is that you shouldn't work at all.
So will you have a picket line outside the offices?
Camilla Frankelius: We don't know yet, but maybe. That's a part of having a strike, so we could have that.
This is an industry which has a very high amount of people working from home. How does that affect your ability to mount a strike?
Camilla Frankelius: Well, yes, but also we've been outside the offices recently and I think it's quite a lot of people that are working also at the office actually. But of course, that's a thing that we have to deal with. If we have to persuade our members that this is the thing, you can't actually work. And I think also that they understand that as far as we have noticed.
This is also a creative industry with quite long-running projects. If people don't work for a week, it maybe doesn't have a huge impact on some of these games that can take years to put together. It doesn't have the direct impact that would happen if say teachers or nurses went on strike. How can you put pressure on them in an industry like this?
Camilla Frankelius: That's a good question and I don't want to answer it, because that's the thing that we have talked with our members – what they are doing and what affect it will have if they don't do the work. So I don't actually want to spell it out here as maybe one of the employers will also listen to this. But, of course, we wouldn't do this if we didn't think that it would have an effect.
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There was this very similar strike over a collective bargaining agreement at Spotify and, ultimately, Spotify did not end up with an agreement. What makes you think you've got a better chance this time?
Camilla Frankelius: With every situation that we have, we consider how far we can go and ask whether this time there is a possibility that we can go the whole way. And I think that now is the time. I would also like to spell out that we have a lot of members: 80 percent of the employees at King are a member of a union. I think that's very good for this upcoming strike, that we can make a success of this.
King is owned by the US company Microsoft. Do you think that could make it more difficult to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement? Do you expect a Tesla situation?
Camilla Frankelius: I don't think so. It's a company that has been working in Sweden for so long and which also has its roots here in Sweden. So I think it's a different situation.
What would you say to people who argue that the Swedish industrial model was designed for big manufacturing companies and is not appropriate for a fast-moving industry like games development?
I think the real difference is that all the companies start small and then they grow bigger if they are successful. I think that is what King is: it's a very big, successful, global company – like Ericsson or Volvo Cars. What these companies tell us is that they like what we have in Sweden. If they work together with the unions, they get better, improve and can be more successful.